Behind the Curtain
689b5db6107b7936d3fbb6d0 16 Leadership Building Trust

Podcast: Leadership Building Trust: Insights into Driving Out Fear

Aug. 12, 2025
Co-hosts Mohamed Saleh and John Dyer weigh in on leadership actions that destroy trust and create fear, as well as those that grow trust and inspire problem-solving and innovation.

Fear is a poor driver of cultural transformation. Management guru W. Edwards Deming knew it back in 1982 when he included among his 14 points for management transformation: “Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company.”

Deming’s words remain true today, say Professor Mohamed Saleh and John Dyer, co-hosts of Behind the Curtain: Adventures in Continuous Improvement. In this podcast episode, the continuous improvement experts tackle the twin topics of psychological safety and driving out fear as necessary elements to building a culture of team-based continuous improvement. They weigh in on leadership actions that destroy trust and create fear, as well as those that grow trust and inspire problem-solving and innovation.

Among the discussion points:

What is psychological safety? Saleh defines it as:

  • Feeling secure to make change (operating without fear of reprimands)
  • Being capable of making change (having received appropriate training or development

Moreover, he emphasizes that psychological safety is a prerequisite for any change. Three ingredients that hamper psychological safety are lack of transparency, command and control leadership style, and create a culture of fear and blame.

Invite participation in meetings and huddles with the use of open-ended questions/guides. “Tell me more,” is a favorite of Saleh’s. “It's simple and clear, it's thought-provoking and it's centered. There's no blame in it. I'm clearly being vulnerable and saying I don't know, I need more,” he says.

Dyer adds his favorite: Please help me understand. This phrasing says, “I'm here to help, but we're a team. We're partners,” Dyer says. “I'm not no longer a boss or a leader, we're partners. How do we work together to move this ball forward?”

Take care with daily management boards. Done poorly, they can be more harmful than helpful. 

One final note: Saleh cites what he describes as one of his favorite books about psychological safety. It is Amy Edmondson's The Fearless Organization

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