From Fear Culture to System Accountability: The Ongoing Debate Over Deming’s 14 Points: Podcast

What’s your favorite? It’s a question that has prompted untold lists or helped you get to know someone or someplace better. In this episode of Behind the Curtain: Adventures in Continuous Improvement, podcast hosts Dr. Mohamed Saleh and John Dyer conclude their series on the teachings of Dr. Deming by taking that question and applying it to the management guru’s 14 points of management.

Dyer selected as his favorite Point 12 — “Remove barriers that rob the hourly worker of his right to pride of workmanship” — and shared a story from his General Electric days to illustrate what happens when that pride of workmanship is absent.

Saleh reflected on Point 2: Adopt the new philosophy. He discussed flawed principles and philosophies that encourage “the wrong things, and it’s baked into the fabric of their operating system” he says. “… without admitting that you have the wrong design principles ... then I don't think you'll ever see a new set of behaviors in the organization, and the culture won't change.”  

The duo both list Point 8 among their favorites: “Drive out fear.”

A Word About Hoshin Planning

Dyer and Saleh then shifted gears to discuss Deming’s most controversial points, led by Point 11 — Eliminate management by objective — a practice that is deeply entrenched in many organizations. The conversation touches on Deming’s opposition to arbitrary targets and quotas, not an opposition to measuring system performance or directional improvement.

The podcast hosts bring the lean tool of hoshin planning into the discussion and compare its intent with that of quotas.

Saleh said that what Deming opposes is individual accountability. “He's more on system accountability,” Saleh says.

“He believed in measuring things, but not to punish. It was to improve,” Dyer added.

Dyer said that beyond Point 11, organizations may also struggle with points 3 and 4, which urge organizations to cease their dependence on inspecting in quality and stop awarding business based on the price tag.

“Those two are fundamental to how most organizations have run for decades,” he points out.